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kentuck

(115,042 posts)
Tue Dec 23, 2025, 06:38 PM 20 hrs ago

I am beginning to believe that Epstein was murdered...

He knew too much.

The note that was mailed to Larry Nasser after his death seems very fishy to me. It was mailed and returned after his death. In it, he says he is taking the short road home. Nasser was the former Olympics coach that had been convicted of sex crimes against the Olympic girl athletes.

Also, we learn today that there were 10 others that were indicted and named in the documents released today. But, all that evidence was buried during the last months of Trump's first Administration. His Justice Department took care of business for him. We knew nothing about this part of the Epstein case?

Also, there have been several reports that the photos of Epstein's suicide were faked. I never thought much about that until now. Maybe they were "faked"?

And the note may have been written by "someone" else to make it appear that he had committed suicide, when in fact, he was murdered.

There is so much information that has come out today, we should be very wary about all of it.

69 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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I am beginning to believe that Epstein was murdered... (Original Post) kentuck 20 hrs ago OP
Some of us have suspected this from day one. Irish_Dem 20 hrs ago #1
His brother believes he was murdered. kentuck 20 hrs ago #2
We know it is at least 50/50 probability. Irish_Dem 19 hrs ago #9
Bill Barr would know. travelingthrulife 2 hrs ago #64
I assumed from the start it was murder buzzycrumbhunger 19 hrs ago #7
I have never thought he committed suicide. yellow dahlia 17 hrs ago #38
Yes and yes. Irish_Dem 8 hrs ago #47
Also Ivanna's death from blunt force trauma from falling down stairs. Irish_Dem 8 hrs ago #50
I hadn't known about Ivana's death being suspicious yellow dahlia 3 hrs ago #62
I thought it was questionable when it happened. Irish_Dem 2 hrs ago #63
I didn't know about Ivana's involvement MustLoveBeagles 2 hrs ago #65
I read it here on DU. Irish_Dem 59 min ago #68
His death was suspicious because it was so timely and convenient for others involved. As more details come out..... FadedMullet 19 hrs ago #3
Bill Barr visited NYC before Epstein died. Who, if anyone, did he meet with RockRaven 19 hrs ago #4
Didn't Barr meet with Epstein while he was in prison? kentuck 19 hrs ago #5
No proof of that specifically AZJonnie 19 hrs ago #11
Coincidences... 2naSalit 19 hrs ago #6
Jeezus, you can't make this shit up. It was murder, alright Joinfortmill 18 hrs ago #19
And Jean Luc Brunel, and Virginia Roberts Giuffre.... Pachamama 19 hrs ago #8
Guiffre does not make sense to include here IMHO AZJonnie 18 hrs ago #14
A lot of suicides. yellow dahlia 17 hrs ago #39
Or out of a window in Moscow. NT Bohunk68 7 hrs ago #51
Epstein didn't kill himself. flvegan 19 hrs ago #10
I saw a joke story this morning catchnrelease 18 hrs ago #13
LOL, that's good. flvegan 17 hrs ago #32
I absolutely agree with you. MorbidButterflyTat 14 hrs ago #45
I totally believe this. Scrivener7 19 hrs ago #12
he hung himself with a paper sheet ? Nigrum Cattus 18 hrs ago #15
That whole two guards fell asleep fujiyamasan 17 hrs ago #34
And the video cameras stopped working at the same time. Irish_Dem 8 hrs ago #49
I've always believed he was murdered. nt Raine 18 hrs ago #16
Me, too. Joinfortmill 18 hrs ago #17
LOL Skittles 18 hrs ago #18
Duh! It was just damn silly that he hanged himself ashredux 18 hrs ago #20
Thinking the same, Kentuck. OAITW r.2.0 18 hrs ago #21
I never had a doubt. tavernier 18 hrs ago #22
Yes. And the only reason Maxwell is still above ground is..... paleotn 18 hrs ago #23
Except the FBI is saying the letter is fake. EdmondDantes_ 17 hrs ago #24
Do we trust this FBI? mwooldri 17 hrs ago #26
I trust them to do something sleazy. GoCubsGo 6 hrs ago #55
Why would I trust anything coming from the FBI headed by a fucking idiot like Patel? fujiyamasan 17 hrs ago #35
Ivana "fell" down the stairs around the same time wolfie001 17 hrs ago #25
Beginning? nt BWdem4life 17 hrs ago #27
Trump acts like a mafia godfather. Emile 17 hrs ago #28
Never believed Epstein committed suicide Picaro 17 hrs ago #29
Yup. yellow dahlia 17 hrs ago #41
I have suspected this all along. evolves 17 hrs ago #30
I've not doubted it for a second relayerbob 17 hrs ago #31
Is water wet? usonian 17 hrs ago #33
It was returned after his death, I don't think it was sent after his death/ Bev54 17 hrs ago #36
I don't think that's correct. People are pointing to a 'postmark' - and that does not stopdiggin 16 hrs ago #42
I have been pretty convinced it was a hit - TBF 17 hrs ago #37
I always thought it went something like this. Iggo 17 hrs ago #40
Larry Nasser was the Olympics team physician. pacalo 15 hrs ago #43
I never thought he killed himself. He Luciferous 15 hrs ago #44
His timely death was all too convenient to be suicide. GoodRaisin 12 hrs ago #46
K&R spanone 8 hrs ago #48
Duh! malaise 7 hrs ago #53
🤣 spanone 6 hrs ago #54
I'm no FBI investigator, but... Mike Nelson 7 hrs ago #52
Julie K. Brown says the handwriting, wording and spelling don't resemble Epstein's. She's the one who actually Scrivener7 6 hrs ago #58
Agreed... Mike Nelson 6 hrs ago #59
Definitely! Magnitudes more important if you believe it wasn't him. Scrivener7 4 hrs ago #61
I'm kind of amazed that you haven't been swarmed by cheerleaders Orrex 6 hrs ago #56
... Prairie Gates 6 hrs ago #57
If that's true we will find out... unless only one person orchestrated the whole thing. JohnnyRingo 5 hrs ago #60
Epstein did not commit suicide LetMyPeopleVote 1 hr ago #66
A lot of us thought so from the beginning. Sure got called lots of names though. Crunchy Frog 1 hr ago #67
While there is lot of craziness around Epstein's death, I think he had plenty of reasons to kill himself Buckeyeblue 44 min ago #69

Irish_Dem

(79,381 posts)
1. Some of us have suspected this from day one.
Tue Dec 23, 2025, 06:45 PM
20 hrs ago

Trump had motive and opportunity.
And would think nothing of killing a friend and business partner to save himsel.

kentuck

(115,042 posts)
2. His brother believes he was murdered.
Tue Dec 23, 2025, 06:50 PM
20 hrs ago

Epstein must have felt that he could always pull the strings and get out of prison? He had always done it before. But, he was sent to prison during Trump's presidency. With the documents made public today, it looks much more likely that he was murdered.

buzzycrumbhunger

(1,607 posts)
7. I assumed from the start it was murder
Tue Dec 23, 2025, 07:11 PM
19 hrs ago

… and who’d be most likely to be desperate enough to shut him up that way? The cohort who’s avoided that so far.

yellow dahlia

(4,286 posts)
38. I have never thought he committed suicide.
Tue Dec 23, 2025, 09:35 PM
17 hrs ago

It doesn't fit his personality profile.

And plus - who did it benefit?

Irish_Dem

(79,381 posts)
50. Also Ivanna's death from blunt force trauma from falling down stairs.
Wed Dec 24, 2025, 06:31 AM
8 hrs ago

It is had been rumored she was involved in the pedo ring, she and Ghislaine Maxwell
interviewed girls. It was said Ivanna was going to be questioned by the police.

yellow dahlia

(4,286 posts)
62. I hadn't known about Ivana's death being suspicious
Wed Dec 24, 2025, 11:48 AM
3 hrs ago

until recently. On DU of course.

It never stops.

Irish_Dem

(79,381 posts)
63. I thought it was questionable when it happened.
Wed Dec 24, 2025, 11:52 AM
2 hrs ago

Especially when Trump dumped her in a grave on one of his golf courses.

But yes, more info is coming out about her role in the pedo ring.

The autopsy said blunt force trauma to her torso was cause of death.
How hard do you have to fall to cause that kind of damage and death?

Maybe it is all legit, but we at least have to ask the question especially in
light of some of the recent reports.

Yes YD it never stops.
The depravity has no bottom.

Irish_Dem

(79,381 posts)
68. I read it here on DU.
Wed Dec 24, 2025, 01:51 PM
59 min ago

It must be true.

But seriously. I think this is new information just coming out.
Wouldn't surprise me in the least.

FadedMullet

(641 posts)
3. His death was suspicious because it was so timely and convenient for others involved. As more details come out.....
Tue Dec 23, 2025, 06:56 PM
19 hrs ago

........about Trump, Mar-a-Largo, the files, other participants (both victims and old man pedophiles) and hush money, the suspicions will solidify into hard facts and headlines.

RockRaven

(18,624 posts)
4. Bill Barr visited NYC before Epstein died. Who, if anyone, did he meet with
Tue Dec 23, 2025, 06:58 PM
19 hrs ago

that was not on his official published schedule? Might be relevant given that Barr was ultimately responsible, as AG and head of the DOJ, both for Epstein's presence in that jail and for the jail itself.

And notice that Barr and Epstein had a connection independent of The Dotard. Barr's father was headmaster of an exclusive/expensive NYC private school that hired Epstein -- who had no college degree and no teaching experience -- to teach math to teens. Epstein then gained a reputation for inappropriately socializing with his teen students, quelle surprise. Also around the time of the hire, Barr's father published a horny/pervy sci-fi novel whose plot involved child sex slavery.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_Relations

What strange coincidences...

AZJonnie

(2,698 posts)
14. Guiffre does not make sense to include here IMHO
Tue Dec 23, 2025, 07:58 PM
18 hrs ago

She was by far and away the most outspoken and threatening victim out there, and she sued people and testified and gave interviews over like 15 years. Seems doubtful she was suddenly a big concern in 2025. If she was going to be whacked, it logically would've occurred long before that

Also, her SIL has said her suicide tracks with her circumstances:

Her sister‑in‑law Amanda Roberts told People that in the months before her death, Giuffre was in significant mental and physical pain, dealing with a serious accident, a separation from her husband, a restraining order that kept her from seeing her children, and long‑term trauma; she said that in the end “the weight of all of her burdens was too much to carry.”


I would also add, based on the memoir she endured significant guilt over her own role in the recruitment of underage girls for JE/GM to prey upon. Combined with all the above her sister mentioned, and knowing the sexual abuse started when she was 12 (way before Epstein)? I have to say I'm quite unsure *I* could endure all that.

Brunel and Epstein, who knows for sure. But their lives were basically over, they were toast. And Brunel was in the clink awaiting trial for 14 months, during which time there were "several" previous suicide attempts. One could imagine depression setting in pretty badly over 14 months (not that I feel sorry for that asshole!).

Epstein died within 24 hours of the release of the files from the 2015 Maxwell defamation case, where Guiffre's testimony nailed his ass to the cross. That timing certainly makes sense for someone offing themselves. That said, I'd be unsurprised if he wasn't "allowed to" and given the tools/means. Perhaps by order of Trump. Perhaps that's one of the things he's terrified might come out?

flvegan

(65,682 posts)
10. Epstein didn't kill himself.
Tue Dec 23, 2025, 07:28 PM
19 hrs ago

He had mountains of "get out of jail free" cards and I believe his appeal to get out on bail was still pending.

I'd sooner believe he was still alive and in hiding/exile somewhere before I believed he killed himself. I'd sooner believe he was in witness protection before I believed he killed himself.

catchnrelease

(2,127 posts)
13. I saw a joke story this morning
Tue Dec 23, 2025, 07:57 PM
18 hrs ago

I think it was on Bluesky but not sure now. It was saying 'Epstein Island sold to Mid East businessman' named Haadid Nahikil Muhssef. (I confess it took me a minute to catch that joke) and a photo of a man with a turban(?) and long white beard. But the face was very clearly Jeffrey Epstein under the 'disguise'. Alluding to just what you said--he's in witness protection somewhere, not dead.
I found a link---
[link:https://genesiustimes.com/epstein-island-sold-to-wealthy-middle-eastern-businessman-haadid-nahkil-muhssef/

MorbidButterflyTat

(4,103 posts)
45. I absolutely agree with you.
Tue Dec 23, 2025, 11:51 PM
14 hrs ago

His "clients" are super wealthy and wouldn't want to give up what Epstein supplied.

His supposedly dead body lying on a gurney for the cameras, just happened to conveniently reveal his face. If dead, the sheet would be over his face.

Wealthy pedophiles have no reason to kill themselves. He could be on any number of yachts in any sea currently indulging in his favorite pastimes. Girls and women are trafficked every day.

Nigrum Cattus

(1,196 posts)
15. he hung himself with a paper sheet ?
Tue Dec 23, 2025, 08:01 PM
18 hrs ago

both guards just so happen to have fallen asleep
during that short period of time ?

fujiyamasan

(1,127 posts)
34. That whole two guards fell asleep
Tue Dec 23, 2025, 09:24 PM
17 hrs ago

Sounds like the plot hole out of a really dumb movie. No one would buy it.

ashredux

(2,847 posts)
20. Duh! It was just damn silly that he hanged himself
Tue Dec 23, 2025, 08:38 PM
18 hrs ago

And what a coincidence, that the video had a little bit of glitch and didn’t show the fact that someone came in and hang the mother fucker… it did not take Colombo to figure this one out

OAITW r.2.0

(31,337 posts)
21. Thinking the same, Kentuck.
Tue Dec 23, 2025, 08:45 PM
18 hrs ago

Epstein died while Trump was President and Barr ran the DOJ. The stuff we are learning about Trump's connection to Epstein now, the more I think that Trump needed him gone.

tavernier

(14,217 posts)
22. I never had a doubt.
Tue Dec 23, 2025, 08:46 PM
18 hrs ago

He had so much compiled against every person who was involved for or against him. I still think that there are more copies than what they know of, and which they redact religiously.

paleotn

(21,410 posts)
23. Yes. And the only reason Maxwell is still above ground is.....
Tue Dec 23, 2025, 08:46 PM
18 hrs ago

she's got a "dead woman" switch. They touch her and everyone blows up.

EdmondDantes_

(1,311 posts)
24. Except the FBI is saying the letter is fake.
Tue Dec 23, 2025, 08:51 PM
17 hrs ago

Maybe before making up our minds we should see if the letter is true, if it's not who faked it, why it was in the files, etc.

GoCubsGo

(34,636 posts)
55. I trust them to do something sleazy.
Wed Dec 24, 2025, 08:10 AM
6 hrs ago

Like planting a fake letter, that will muddy up things, in hopes that people will start losing trust, and start believing the whole "hoax" thing. At the very least, this is a distraction.

fujiyamasan

(1,127 posts)
35. Why would I trust anything coming from the FBI headed by a fucking idiot like Patel?
Tue Dec 23, 2025, 09:25 PM
17 hrs ago

The agency is compromised.

wolfie001

(6,962 posts)
25. Ivana "fell" down the stairs around the same time
Tue Dec 23, 2025, 08:53 PM
17 hrs ago

Coincidence? Rumor has it that a couple of russkis witnessed the whole incident.

Picaro

(2,322 posts)
29. Never believed Epstein committed suicide
Tue Dec 23, 2025, 09:12 PM
17 hrs ago

Simple details made suicide impossible for me to believe. First he was as much a narcissist as Trump. Narcissists rarely kill themselves.

Second, he knew too much about Trump while he had all the resources available to the President of the United States. Think through that for just a moment.

Then the strange issues with the guards who were not there and the cameras that were expertly disabled for just the right time period.

Then the motive. Epstein had the goods on Trump and probably telegraphed that to him.

The autopsy revealed things that wouldn’t have been there in a simple jailhouse self hanging.

It goes on and on.

This is a demonstration of Occam’s Razor. When everything is brushed away and only one thing remains then that must be the truth.

This is a very Sherlockian story.

When I saw that Epstein had said in an email that Trump was the dog who didn’t bark I almost spit my coffee across the room. How unintentionally apropos.

But how normal that this instinctively Machiavellian man Epstein would see what Trump’s moves would be and that he was a walking dead man.

evolves

(5,726 posts)
30. I have suspected this all along.
Tue Dec 23, 2025, 09:14 PM
17 hrs ago

He DID know too much and was probably prepared to spill it.

Not only is donnie a rapist and a pedophile, he’s likely also a murderer.

stopdiggin

(14,919 posts)
42. I don't think that's correct. People are pointing to a 'postmark' - and that does not
Tue Dec 23, 2025, 10:21 PM
16 hrs ago

indicate/refer to a 'return' date.

(In any event - such an obvious and incredible 'hack job' - that it never warranted any consideration in the first place. I would be embarrassed pointing to this as evidence or 'indicating' anything at all.)

TBF

(35,455 posts)
37. I have been pretty convinced it was a hit -
Tue Dec 23, 2025, 09:31 PM
17 hrs ago

and I don't think Ivana's "fall" was "accidental" either.

GoodRaisin

(10,697 posts)
46. His timely death was all too convenient to be suicide.
Wed Dec 24, 2025, 02:45 AM
12 hrs ago

Never have believed that. Much more likely to be murder, with Krasnov having the most to gain by Epstein being dead.

Mike Nelson

(10,894 posts)
52. I'm no FBI investigator, but...
Wed Dec 24, 2025, 07:07 AM
7 hrs ago

... the "letter" is fake, they said. First of all, the postmark is, what did they say, three days after his death? Means nothing, to me... are there post offices in prisons, to officially postmark letters? I had no idea! Why do prisoners get their mail postmarked so quickly and efficiently? AND, okay... their "handwriting experts" say it wasn't Epstein's writing. THEN, considering how the letter reads - the subject and details - they should know who the "forger" is, by now. I would have ordered DNA testing IMMEDIATELY. Letters are like crime scenes... licking the stamp, the flap, and whatever is inside!

Scrivener7

(58,146 posts)
58. Julie K. Brown says the handwriting, wording and spelling don't resemble Epstein's. She's the one who actually
Wed Dec 24, 2025, 08:26 AM
6 hrs ago

took him down, and to do that she studied him for years.

I tend to accept her opinion. YMMV.

Orrex

(66,599 posts)
56. I'm kind of amazed that you haven't been swarmed by cheerleaders
Wed Dec 24, 2025, 08:14 AM
6 hrs ago

Generally when someone dares to question Trump's official story re: Epstein's "suicide," a throng of finger-waggers appears to scold, belittle, and humiliate.

JohnnyRingo

(20,422 posts)
60. If that's true we will find out... unless only one person orchestrated the whole thing.
Wed Dec 24, 2025, 09:41 AM
5 hrs ago

I believe such a plot would involve coconspirators at many levels, right down to other prisoners and individual guards on duty that night.
I also believe there's more to this story than what we know so far.

A secret is only good until two people know it and it's just a matter of time before someone comes forward

Buckeyeblue

(6,167 posts)
69. While there is lot of craziness around Epstein's death, I think he had plenty of reasons to kill himself
Wed Dec 24, 2025, 02:06 PM
44 min ago

Spending the remainder of his life in prison as a sex offender is a big reason. Why would anyone want to continue living under such circumstances?

But I'm continually amazed at the people facing life in prison or even the death penalty who turn themselves in or allow themselves to be taken into custody without a fight.

I guess I'm just amazed at the people who are obedient and freely comply when their lives are effectively over.

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