Netanyahu says Hamas Gaza chief Mohammad Sinwar has been killed

[mahatmakanejeeves]

Source: Reuters

Netanyahu says Hamas Gaza chief Mohammad Sinwar has been killed

By Reuters
May 28, 202511:08 AM EDT Updated 26 min ago


A screengrab shows according to the Israeli Army, Hamas Gaza chief Mohammed Sinwar, taken from a handout video, released December 17, 2023. Israeli Army/Handout via REUTERS

JERUSALEM, May 28 (Reuters) - Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said on Wednesday that Mohammad Sinwar, Hamas' Gaza chief and the younger brother of the Palestinian militant group's deceased leader and mastermind of the October 2023 attack, Yahya Sinwar, had been killed.

Mohammad Sinwar had been the target of an Israeli strike on a hospital in southern Gaza earlier this month and Netanyahu said on May 21 that it was likely he was dead.

{snip}

Read more: https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/netanyahu-says-hamas-gaza-chief-mohammed-sinwar-has-been-eliminated-2025-05-28/

[maxsolomon]

1. Now that both Sinwars are gone, will that move the needle?

Would Hamas adopt a different negotiating stance?

[Richard D]

2. Hamas is drowning

Not dead yet, but most of the "leaders" have entered Jehanna. I don't think any top-level Hamas remains, and the people of Gaza are beginning to turn against them. The monitored food aid was a big hit against them.

[maxsolomon]

3. Hamas leaders are still in Lebanon and Qatar, aren't they?

That's where the negotiators come from. IIRC, the leaders in Gaza are/were the most intransigent.

[Richard D]

5. Lebanon, Qatar, Turkey . . .

. . . I'm not sure which are political and which are military, but my understanding (and I could be wrong) is that most of the military leaders are no more.

[JustAnotherGen]

4. Agreed - and Israel's Leadership won't let up

As the head of Hamas’ armed wing, Sinwar would have had the final word on any agreement to release the hostages, and his death could further complicate U.S. and Arab efforts to broker a ceasefire. Israel has vowed to continue the war until all the hostages are returned and Hamas has been either defeated or disarmed and sent into exile.

https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-hamas-war-mohammed-sinwar-leader-strike-6bd5f3688636c8bb5bda9dad7ab57b7f

Netanyahu did not elaborate. Israeli media had reported that the younger Sinwar was the target of a May 13 strike on what the military said was a Hamas command center beneath the European Hospital in the southern Gaza city of Khan Younis, the Sinwars’ hometown. The military declined to comment on whether Sinwar had been targeted or killed.

At least six people were killed in the strike and 40 wounded, Gaza’s Health Ministry said at the time.

Hamas has said that Mohammed Sinwar was targeted by Israel on several occasions and was briefly believed to have been killed in 2014. He is said to have been one of a handful of top commanders who knew about the Oct. 7 attack in advance.

In December 2023, the Israeli military released a video it said showed a bearded Mohammed Sinwar sitting next to a driver in a car as it moved inside a tunnel in the Gaza Strip. Hamas never confirmed what would be one of the few public images of him.

I'm sick and tired of seeing dead and starving little kids. I need Israel to break Hamas and then open the flood gates to helping the innocents in this conflict. I think they only way they get there is taking out the leadership.

[Richard D]

6. Indeed

I need Israel to break Hamas and then open the flood gates to helping the innocents in this conflict. I think they only way they get there is taking out the leadership.

It's a shame that so much of the world doesn't get that and wants Israel to go belly up in surrender to Hamas (anything less than victory which will include the return of all hostages and surrendering all weapons and criminal terrorists).

[JustAnotherGen]

7. I keep wondering

What people who don't see this fact get 'out of it'?

Are they just looking to punch down on people?

In the Arab world - 93% are Muslim

Islam is the second largest religion in the world.

In 30 countries, 90 % of the inhabitants are Muslims.

People make excuses for the evil that Saudia Arabia inflicts - but seem to want to kick Israel? I wonder why that is?

[Richard D]

11. An ancient question, made current.

What people who don't see this fact get 'out of it'?

This is complex. Maybe I will address it in depth in it's own post. But, virtue signaling is a big part.

Are they just looking to punch down on people?

Just Jews.

In the Arab world - 93% are Muslim

Looking at a map of the Arab world, well, it's huge. And the word Arab signifies from the Arabian Peninsula, which is Saudi Arabia for the most part. Arabs and Islam have fully colonized North Africa, the entirety of the Middle East, other than Israel, and are on the way to colonizing Europe and other parts of the world. Lebanon was a Christian country, Afghanistan was Buddhist, etc.

Islam is the second largest religion in the world.

And the fastest growing. But we won't call it colonization! I do not consider Islam evil, but Islamist and Jihadist philosophy is the worst of the worst.

In 30 countries, 90 % of the inhabitants are Muslims.

And they weren't not so long ago.

People make excuses for the evil that Saudia Arabia inflicts - but seem to want to kick Israel? I wonder why that is?

Jews. A simple and tragic answer.

[JustAnotherGen]

39. I very much

Appreciated your TED Talk.

Aaah yes - the expulsion of Jews from Muslim countries post WW2. It's a difficult fact for too many people to understand.

[Eko]

15. When anything less than a total victory is called a surrender you might want to rethink what you are doing.

[Richard D]

18. I have thought about it, a lot

Hamas is cancer. When fighting cancer, if the totality of the cancer is not eliminated, there will be a relapse. If Hamas is not eliminated, they will rearm, re-group, re-train, and kill innocent Israelis again and again. This is their words, not mine. They have no desire to live in peace and cooperation. You can't negotiate or have peace with those whose goal is to kill you.

[Eko]

19. So anything other than a total victory is a surrender and the enemy is cancer and needs to be totally eliminated.

I've heard words like that before.

[Richard D]

23. What else would you say . . .

. . . about those who committed the atrocities of Oct 7 and promised to do it again? Want to sit down with them for a nice cup of tea before they cut you to pieces? Or, perhaps you think Jewish lives don't have value and we should not protect ourselves? A lot of people seem to believe that.

[Eko]

27. This is what gets me.

Unless I think that "anything other than a total victory is a surrender and the enemy is cancer and needs to be totally eliminated" then I must want to sit down with them for a nice cup of tea and I don't think Jewish lives have value or that they should protect themselves. You should listen to yourself.

[Richard D]

30. I understand that it gets you.

So, what is your solution to this situation? Hamas swears to kill all Jews. That's a fact made apparent by their actions. They have said that they will not negotiate, and they do not want peace. Israelis just want to live in peace and safety, and never again have another Oct 7 massacre. Not to mention not having over 20,000 rockets shot at them since Oct 7 and numerous other murders of their citizens.

So, what is the solution? If Hamas survives, there will be more slaughters, not to mention the suffering they cause the Gazans.

So, what is the solution with an enemy whose only desire is to kill you?

[Eko]

34. hamas said it wont negotiate?

I haven't seen that. What I have seen is them negotiating quite a bit.

Hamas says it has reached an agreement with US special envoy Steve Witkoff on a “general framework” for a ceasefire deal and now awaits a “final response.”

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/hamas-claims-it-reached-deal-with-witkoff-on-general-framework-for-ceasefire-waiting-final-response/
And that is not the first or only time. So clearly they want to negotiate.

What is my solution?
hamas (I don't capitalize them or trump) are a terrorist org. One can also think of them as an insurrection. I have no problem with capturing them and turning them over to face the law or if they cant be captured without too much loss of life then killed. There are actual military guides out there for dealing with an insurrection and one of the first, very first things you have to do is take away their support of the local populace. For the US military it is called COIN. Israel is not doing any of that. Zero.

The US military's Counterinsurgency (COIN) policy is a comprehensive approach that combines military and civilian efforts to defeat, contain, and address the root causes of an insurgency. It emphasizes a broad, multifaceted approach that includes not only military force but also political, economic, social, and diplomatic actions. The goal is to render insurgents ineffective and to build a strong and secure relationship with the host nation's population

When we won WW2 we did not kill all the Germans who were in the military nor the Japanese who were in the military. We used law to prosecute those that deserved it and even killed some of them, we did not kill them all like you want.

[Richard D]

33. Lest you think I am exagurating

“If the Jews all gather in Israel, it will save us the trouble of going after them worldwide.” – Hassan Nasrallah (2002)

“We recognize no treaty with it (Israel), no ceasefire, and no peace agreements.” - Hassan Nasrallah - The Hizballah Program 1988

“Definitely, most definitely we oppose a Jewish state in any part of Palestine.” —Omar Barghouti, co-founder of PACBI

The Day of Judgment will not come until Muslims fight the Jews and kill them; until the Jew hides behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me—come and kill him. - Hamas Charter

[Eko]

35. No, I don't think you are exaggerating at all.

Those words are no different than these though.
anything other than a total victory is a surrender and the enemy is cancer and needs to be totally eliminated.

[Richard D]

36. The difference is vast.

Sorry you don't see it.

[Eko]

37. Are you going to kill the hamas government officals who work at the water plants?

And all the other ones that just worked for the government and didn't do anything in the massacre? They are members of hamas.

[Richard D]

41. Hamas is a terrorist organization

Waterplant workers are not terrorists.

Would Hamas spare Jews who were, say, dancing at a music festival? Planting their garden? Playing with their grandchildren?

[Eko]

44. They are also the government of Gaza.

The people working in the government work for hamas. That makes them hamas.

[Richard D]

75. Splitting hairs . . .

. . . Of course you know what I am referring to when I say Hamas.

[Eko]

77. I'm going by your words.

"Hamas is cancer. When fighting cancer, if the totality of the cancer is not eliminated, there will be a relapse."

[Richard D]

79. Which is, for the most part . . .

. . . 100% true.

[Eko]

80. Really?

How can it be for the most part 100% true. For the most part means in most cases; usually, but 100% means all.

[Richard D]

81. Talking about cancer treatment . . .

. . . and getting it 100% out has a higher chance of survival for the patient than does a partial removal, by whatever means.

[Eko]

82. People are not cancer.

[Richard D]

83. True, nor are they animals . . .

. . . but terrorists are worse than either. Apologies to cancer for making such a bad correlation. It just doesn't deserve it.

[Eko]

84. I find it amazing that some people who support the Jewish state think that people are worse than a cancer.

Seems like that kind of thinking is what got us to where we are at.

[Richard D]

85. No dear,

What got us to where we are is the massacre, rape, burnings, beheadings, dismemberings, sexual torture, and kidnappings that happened on October 7, and Hamas's promise to do it again and again until all Jews are dead.

[Eko]

86. That was just a step after thousands of steps. The history of all this started long ago.

Nothing excuses what they did on Oct 7th and the ones that did that deserve justice. But what you want is not justice its revenge.

[Richard D]

89. When you say . . .

. . . "the history of this started long ago" it sounds like an excuse. It also sounds like you do not really know the history of Israel.

I do not want revenge, I want assurance that my friends and relatives will never have the slightest chance being the victims of another Oct 7.

[Eko]

92. Its not an excuse at all its history and I have a good idea of the history.

But of course if I don't think all of hamas should be killed and they are a cancer then I must want to what was it? Have tea with them and think that Jewish lives don't have value? Now its I'm ignorant of the history cause I don't agree with you? You don't want revenge you just want all of hamas killed and think they are worse than cancer. Not be caught and sent to the courts for justice. Are you willing to kill everyone in the ME who is against the state of Israel to achieve that assurance that there will never be the slightest chance of another Oct 7th? Once again hamas is a terrorist org as well as the current govt of Gaza and they deserve to be brought to justice for that horrible act they did, however, what you are saying and what Israel is doing will not produce peace but more war and more death. You cant kill an Idea you can only offer a better one.

[JustAnotherGen]

40. Was it me

Writing about White Supremacists in America?

I make no distinction between Hamas and the descendents of the KKK.

When this regime falls - I want that cancer eradicated by any means necessary. If anything, Netanyahu makes me wonder why we've put up with them here for so long.

[Eko]

43. Kill em all huh?

[JustAnotherGen]

71. Yes

David Duke serves no purpose on earth. Prove me wrong.

[Eko]

78. Thankfully here in the US we dont kill people for their beliefs.

First because its immoral and second because it doesn't work.

[JustAnotherGen]

99. Really?

That's news to me. Because this country's dominant culture has killed Indigenous and Black Americans in state sponsored murders for 100's of years.

So let me get this straight -

When the regime falls you want to go back to status quo? Interesting. Anti Black White Supremacy will continue.

Thanks for nothing.

PS
There are five black gun clubs in Hunterdon County NJ that didn't exist a year ago. Open your eyes. Resting means PREPARING.

Just stay out of our way when these filthy animals brains break and we have to kill to defend ourselves. You are not a reliable ally.

[Eko]

100. Jeeze

You got all that from me saying we dont kill people for their beliefs?

[JustAnotherGen]

102. Yes - you know why

It's status quo thinking. Lets just ALL come together.

Don't question the existence of the Klan, The Proud Boys, etc etc. We can't possibly treat them as Nazis were treated.

We have to do the same old thing we did after the Civil War and make sure racist white folks have the chance AGAIN to rise and inflict pain.

So yeah - read the room. When you read the room - you will find a simmering RAGE among Black Americans. That Constitution was NEVER for us. So I don't want to hear or read any bullshit about our goody goody gum drop American values or "what we do".

If one is not ready for a radical reckoning - they are not our ally. They want a return to the Status Quo. Like . . . .where people who think their white skin makes them superior and who are catered to a d allowed to inflict pain on non white folks. Because . . .


AmeriKKKa!

[Eko]

103. You sure do put a lot of words in my mouth.

[JustAnotherGen]

106. Oh

So sorry.

[Eko]

104. You talk about me reading the room while you proclaim what my beliefs are without ever asking them.

Nothing that you have said about me is even remotely correct. Maybe you should check yourself for being able to "read a room" because you obviously cant.

[JustAnotherGen]

105. Nope

I'm right.

Because we both know that White Supremacists never stop with *thinking*.

They always act on it.

But you're okay with their ideology being legal. I know for a FACT my granddaddy killed at least two White Supremacists in Alabama in the 40's and got away with it. They threatened his with words and ideas . . . and Black Man in Jim Crow got away with it.

We are different. We reside in the US - but do not LIVE IN the same country with the same intergenerational trauma.

Reading the room goes beyond me. Its the 78% and the 92%. This new 1865?

We aren't fucking around this time. We are roo heavily armed.

[Eko]

107. Personally I think John Brown had the right idea but hey, you're right.

Never blocked anyone before as I believe in the idea of free speech, something you believe in right? But anyways you are just too insulting so Bye.

[Grins]

55. Bunk. Heard that for years.

You kill the leader, the 2nd in Command steps up.

If Germany managed to kill Eisenhower, his replacement was already in place.

Hamas will die out when Israel comes to term with treating Palestinians decently.

[Richard D]

76. Now with that idiolology . . .

. . . The Nazis would still be in power.

[Eko]

88. So when we killed Hitler did that get rid of all the Nazis?

When we had the Nuremberg trials did that?
When we destroyed their government, their military, took over the country for years did that get rid of the Nazis?
You cant kill your way to getting rid of an ideology.

[Richard D]

90. The Nuremberg trials . . .

. . . could only have happened after the Nazis were defeated and surrendered, as is true of the transformation of Germany from a fascist state to a modern, functional, and productive society.

[Eko]

93. And did it get rid of Nazis?

[Richard D]

95. you tell me

[Eko]

96. I just showed you a modern picture of Nazis so I guess I told you.

[Richard D]

101. Yup, you sure showed me, you did!

[Richard D]

91. And, do not ignore the fact . . .

. . . that Hamas could have surrendered, laid down their weapons, and released the hostages anytime and any day during the last Six Hundred and One days; thus putting an end to the war.

[Eko]

94. They offered two of those and it was rejected.

If people in Israel think like you do then I could understand why they don't want to surrender. Not if all of them are then going to be summarily executed no matter what they did or did not do.

[Canada Kid]

8. How many more Sinwars??

Despite Israelis killing off the upper leadership, these animals just won't give up. Israel would not give in even for a second with the ongoing threat of attacks against their people. If Hamas really gave a shit about their own...they would lay down their arms and call it quits. Fanaticism drives these clowns...and that is a real problem

[Exp]

10. "Animals'? Really? Israel's been STEALING their land for decades, WTF are they supposed to do? And besides,

Israel has proven that they just want to KILL KILL KILL all Palestinians.
No one outside of Israel believes Israel anymore.

[Richard D]

12. For sure . . .

. . . there is no antisemitism in your post. Well, there is, every word. Ugly lies are so easy to spread.

Disgusting post. I hope you enjoy your short stay on DU.

[Exp]

21. Geeezuz, again with the ... I am only against what Bibi and the IDF have been doing, it has nothing to do with how

anyone worships. I don't give rat's ass about that.

"Animals", the use of that word by anyone to dehumanize makes them sound like a fascist.

[Richard D]

74. You neither stated IDF . . .

. . . nor Netanyahu. You said Israel. Hence, all Israelis. Which equals Jews. That's why it's antisemetic.

[Exp]

111. I have to ask you if it is possible to separate nationalism from religion. Since you refer to all Israelis and defenders

of Bibi and the IDF as Jews, then it would appear that you cannot or prefer not to make the separation, so, then of course ( to you), any anti-Israel policy is anti-semetic.

Not only is that problematic for other nations attempting a common sense playing field, but it makes no sense and is not helping anyone's cause. It also makes for a kind of "victimhood" that is warped from the reailty of Israel's unpopular ( on the world stage) policies.. What is mostly claimed is "they hate us b/c we're Jewish" and NOT the REALITY of "they hate us b/c of Bibi's policies"... Surely you can see the difference. I can say "Many around the world hate us b/c of the USA's foreign policies" and not feel slighted or victimized or attacked b/c I'm an American. Perhaps if I was a Christian Nationalist I could find a way to be offended if I really wanted to, is that sort of what's going on with you?

[Richard D]

112. Well, no . . .

Being Jewish is far more than a religion. It's a people, a tribe, an interrelated family that goes back thousands of years. Israel is our ancestral and sacred homeland. It has been for around 3500 years. The desire to return there is in our songs, our prayers, it is where we face when we pray, and is imbued in our genetic structure.

So when you say "Israel has proven that they just want to KILL KILL KILL all Palestinians", you are stating something that is, first off, not true, and second, is yet another version of the blood libel antisemetic trope--which has been directly responsible for millions of innocent Jews being slaughtered. Yes, they hate us because we are Jewish. Look at the Hamas Charter and listen to what Jihadis say about us to see how deep that goes. The land has little to nothing to do with it.

And it is curious, with 150,000 deaths based on religion, hundreds of thousands displaced, an engineered famine and starvation . . . well, why is no one in this community complaining enough or at all about . . . Sudan or other places where Islamists are slaughtering non-Muslims? Why is there no recognition that Arabs are from the Arabian Peninsula, and all who are anywhere else are colonizers? Why is it never stated that the goal of Islamism is world conquest so that the entire globe will be under Sharia law?

Here we have the reality: If it's not Jews, it's not news.

[Exp]

113. You answered my question and that answer is "no". So political policies that are wrong in the eyes of the

rest of the world are not negotiable. That is a problem. It's no different than Christian Nationalism.

[Richard D]

114. You will, of course . . .

. . . see what you want to see and jump to whatever conclusions you have already made.

[Exp]

115. I'm okay knowing that most of the world is with me while Trump and Bibi are on board with your way of thinking.

Really says a lot!

Thanks for clearing that up!

[Richard D]

116. My pleasure!

And we know for certain that the opinion 'ad populum' is always right!!!!!

Jump on the Bandwagon! The masses are the key to proper thinking! Think like they do.

This is the problem. So many have lost the ability to think critically.

[Exp]

117. Projection is all the rage these days, eh?

[Richard D]

118. It seems to be . . .

. . . and you do it so well!

[Violet_Crumble]

58. For those of us not as attuned to bigotry as you are...

Can you point to all this antisemitism apparently oozing from the post? Be specific and explain what definition of antisemitism it falls foul of.

[Richard D]

73. I don't think you . . .

. . . are open to hearing the answer. Hence, replying would be a waste of my time. The passive/aggressiveness in your question says it all. If I am misunderstanding that and you really want to understand the depth of antisemitism inherent in that and most posts I see here about Israel, let me know. But only if you want to understand it with the intention of expanding your view and understanding us better.

[Violet_Crumble]

108. It was sarcasm with a dash of snark...

Apologies for that. I was annoyed by the last sentence in yr post.

It may surprise you, but I am actually interested in hearing what you think, unless you think any criticism of Israel is antisemitic, and then I think there's no point discussing anything. Assuming that's not yr mindset, I would like to try to understand. It doesn't mean that I'll agree with you, but I'll definitely give you the respect of listening to yr perspective.

[Richard D]

110. Apologies accepted

Thank you. I am certainly happy to share whatever I have to share (except my toothbrush).

Antisemitism is a pretty vast topic. There are many books written about it, graduate-level classes, and whole organizations dedicated to providing education about it. It goes back very far in our history, and has been the cause of many millions of people murdered, tortured, and economically punished, for no other reason than they were Jews. Every Jew carries within them the epigenetic signatures of these age-old traumas. I don't think any of us ever feels completely safe, no matter where we are. We have a history of dear friends turning against us, nations rejecting us, and fascists trying to wipe us from the face of the earth.

Yet we survive, when all who tried to eliminate us have vanished into the winds of time.

I am no expert on this topic, and honestly, until October 7, it didn't interest me, and I literally never discussed it. That said, I am happy to share what I can.

And, since I am Jewish, I reserve the right to answer a question with a question, not as an FU, but as a potential way to expand the conversation beyond trite cliches and stereotypes.

So, where would you like to start?

[Violet_Crumble]

120. Can we start with the post that you reacted to?

I did read the exchange between both of you, so now I know what you see as antisemitic about it. My admittedly clumsy way of detecting antisemitism is if I read or hear something and it sets off an icky, slimy feeling inside me. While thanks to my English great grandfather I have Jewish ancestry, I'm not Jewish and haven't had to deal with antisemitism, apart from being gobsmacked when people in real life resort to it. I'll give you an example in a minute.

I suspect that most at DU would agree on what's antisemitic a lot of the time, and the only time there's disagreements is when Israel is involved. I've seen plenty of antisemitic posts over the years (eg referring to Israel as Nazis or collectively blaming all Jews for what Israel does), so I'd agree that there is a lot when it comes to Israel. When someone says Israel or the Israeli government is carrying out war crimes or starving Gazans, that's not antisemitic to me. It's the same as saying the US is putting people on planes and dumping them in prisons in third countries, or that the US has threatened to invade Canada, Panama and Greenland. Where it would become antisemitic for me is if rather than saying Israel, something that some folk over at Reddit seem allergic to, someone says 'The Zionist entity is carrying out war crimes.' The icky, slimy feeling tends to happen a fair bit when I see or hear comments about Zionists and what's happening in Gaza, even though talking about Zionists and Zionism is fine if it's talking about the history of Israel, if that makes sense.

Anyway, that's why I don't think the comment you reacted to was antisemitic or meant to be, but when you talk about the history of betrayal and destruction that Jews have faced over time, I actually understand the sensitivity.

While I was typing, I thought of a second real life experience of exposure to antisemitism. The first was when I was studying years ago and the class was WWII. My class was discussing the Holocaust and the aftermath of the war, and one of the other students argued that Israel should never have been created, and while they were arguing it, repeatedly referred to Israel as 'the Zionist entitlty'. While the teacher shut them down, they didn't correct them, and just let it slide.

The second was a close friend, who decided to express her views to me on the conflict as we talk politics a fair bit. Instead of talking about Israel, she said 'the Jews'. I'm not sure where that came from or why, but she knows now that conflating Israel and all Jews is pretty stinky, even though I still don't understand why she didn't already know that.

I just realised I didn't even ask you a question and just rambled. Sorry! Have a great weekend.

[Richard D]

121. I enjoyed the ramble . . .

One of the differences, I think, is that when I see antisemitism, I don't get an "ick", I often get a fight or flight response (Sympathetic nervous system). More often than flight, it's fight, like 99%. I believe this is an epigenetic change in the way people who are Jewish react, given all of the times we were the subjects of pogroms, etc. Darwinism in action. That's why the bulge you may see in an ultra-orthodox Rabbi's jacket could be a 9mm semi-automatic instead of a prayer book.

There's another level to antisemitism that is more difficult to see. Let's call it the unconscious level of antisemitism. I see this expressed in the absolute willingness and even glee to unquestioningly accept any accusations in the media against Israel, and the near knee-jerk reaction to label any defence of such accusations as zionist propaganda. And even when such accusations are proven to be false, there follow strings of buts, what-ifs, and could-be's. You can see that in the discussion of the 14K (ok, I'll stop using 44K. Maybe I should have used d144K to point out the absurdity) children who were scheduled to die of starvation in 2 days—total fabrication and many were, rather than being happy they were not going to perish in 2 days, angry about being exposed.

This goes deep. I doubt very many people say Zionist without at least subconsciously thinking of Jews. I doubt very many have even taken the time to understand that Zionism is the belief that the Jewish homeland is the land of Israel. There is a whole shit-load of implied beliefs around that which are definitely antisemetic, even if "Jews are . . ." is never explicitly stated.

And then there is one of the big ones. People are obsessed with Israel and labeling it as an apartheid genocidal state, when this is incredibly far from the truth. Why is this antisemetic? It should be obvious, but let's go over some numbers . . . 150,000 murdered, millions displaced, families destroyed, starvation rampant. A horrible situation, but no one here is outraged and making repeated virtue posts and statements of horror about Sudan. No marching in solidarity with the starving and murdered people of Yemen. No demonstrations for the Druze or the Christians of Lebanon or the Buddhists of Afghanistan. All of these were/are indigenous people of their land, colonized, starved, and murdered by a real colonizer, the Arabs from the Arabian Peninsula. Yet Israel, which was horrifically attacked and is fighting back to make sure it can never happen again, gets the ire of the world. No Jews, no news.

[Canada Kid]

13. Do your information check!!

EXP....Please step back and take the time to seriously research the TRUE history of the Palestinian peoples. Stop regurgitating the incredible BS that you have chosen to follow as gospel. It is all garbage...created by those who are and always will be antisemites and just plain stupid, and this is from decades ago! Isreal did not form the Gaza area...they had absolutely nothing to do with it. The British along with all the surrounding Arabic states set this up themselves. Check the TRUE facts....do not be ignorant.

[Eko]

16. History.

What was the 1967 Middle East war?

What is known as the Six-Day War changed boundaries in the Middle East and had major consequences for Palestinians.

The war saw Israel fight Egypt, Syria and Jordan.

It started when Israel, fearing an attack by Egypt and Syria, launched a strike on Egypt's air force.

By the time the fighting ended, Israel had captured the Sinai Peninsula and Gaza from Egypt, most of the Golan Heights from Syria, and East Jerusalem and the West Bank from Jordan.

About a million Palestinians in the West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem came under Israel's control.
https://www.bbc.com/news/newsbeat-44124396

[Exp]

22. Exactly. And if you're surrounded by people who hate you, maybe THEY aren't the problem. nt

[Exp]

20. There was the 1948 Partition and "Settlers" on a Biblical mission took over Palestinian lands. It's in the

books.

[Beastly Boy]

25. Which books are you reading?

Since you don't care to elaborate on "partition":

It was the UN, the legal authority of the land at the time, that PROPOSED the partition. Israel accepted it and created a state. The Palestinians rejected it and ended up with nothing. There was a war: the armies of five Arab League states (which included Jordan and Egypt) vs an ad hoc army of the newly created State of Israel. The Arabs lost. As a consequence, the armistice between members of Arab League (who wouldn't permit Palestinians to participate) established the new internationally recognized border of the State of Israel. Jordan annexed the West Bank and Egypt occupied Gaza, the territories that the UN partition reserved for the Palestinian state and that the Palestinians rejected.

For decades, the vast majority of the new State of Israel were secular Jews expelled from Europe and the Muslim countries. Secular Jews, both right wing and left wing, are still dominant in Israel.

I bet none of this is in the books you are reading.

[Violet_Crumble]

62. All the books I've read pretty much cover all that...

..which is why I can't disagree with that as a very short summary. Though if you were to use that to argue that the West Bank and Gaza aren't occupied territory, then that'd be an entirely different story.

And I genuinely would like to know what books you've read on the creation of Israel and the conflict. I have no doubt you've read a fair bit, but want to do a side-by-side comparison to what I've read over the years.

[Beastly Boy]

72. Neither the format nor the environment on DU permit anything but the most superficial inquiries

into the topic of Israel/Palestine. The framing of the topic as "Israel/Palestine" is itself a somewhat misleading shorthand: the State of Israel, no matter how you look at it, makes up the majority of Palestine, and the division between the two is only meant to signify the separation between the State of Israel and the occupied territories of West Bank and Gaza, particularly their respective statuses in international law. In the immediate present, both Gaza and the West Bank are occupied, but under international law there are certain distinctions between the two which are too nuanced and contested to bring up here.

I usually respond, unless I am challenged otherwise, to posts that contradict facts, purposely or out of ignorance (not that I am completely immune from the latter), or to provide pertinent information that adds context or missing content. When I encounter particularly egregious examples, I tend to respond with snark. Guilty as charged.

As to the specifics of your question, the information I refer to is not found in books alone. It is more of a multimedia experience which includes printed sources. For brevity, I will limit the examples of written sources (it would be unfair to concentrate exclusively on "books" as volumes of text created by by authors and/or editors that circulate in printed form). I will also limit this list, for brevity, to the events between WW1 and the present, leaving out much of what eventually lead to the present.

First and foremost, I go to the original sources. These may include documents like the Hussein-McMahon correspondences, the Sykes-Picot agreement, the Balfour Declaration, the League of Nations grant of mandate to Britain, the UN partition of Palestine, the Geneva Conventions, the Rome Convention, the Camp David agreements, the Oslo accords, etc. For more descriptive and contiguous narratives, I would go to books lile "A Very Short History of the Israel/Palestine Conflict by Ilan Pappe, Noa Tishby's "Israel", Benny Morris' "One State, Two States". I also like Encyclopedia Britannica for its ability to access specific topics. For the coverage of most recent events, there is no alternative to mass media in which I would slightly favor outlets within Israel and the Arab world (particularly Lebanese and Egyptian sources), not necessarily for impartial coverage but for their coverage of certain nuances that are routinely disregarded by the Western media.

What would you add to this list?

[Violet_Crumble]

109. Yr list isn't too dissimilar to mine...

I'm lazy, and in all the years I've been at DU I'd never thought about the Israel/Palestine shorthand label. Not really sure what else to refer to it as, though.

Agree on those primary sources. I haven't read any of those books you mentioned, but have read 'A History of Modern Palestine' by Ilan Pappe, and 'Righteous Victims' by Benny Morris. Tom Segev's 'One Palestine, Complete' and 'The Iron Wall' by Avi Shlaim are also up there for me. One thing that Israel excels at it producing excellent historians. And to show what a broad range of reading I used to do on the conflict, I've got books by Alan Derschowitz and Norman Finkelstein sitting next to each other.

I suspect the area we'd well and truly part ways on is reports from human rights organisations. Not sure what you think of B'selem, but I think they're the most reputable out of all the groups.

On the subject of snark, I indulged in an unprovoked bit myself in another post in this thread to you, so I'll leave that one be and move on in a much less snarky fashion...

[AloeVera]

53. I don't know if your post was meant as sarcasm. Here is some more history..

A majority of the current inhabitants of Gaza are descendants of some of the 700,000 Palestinians who were expelled or forced to flee from their homes and lands in what is now Israel - during the Nakba in 1948. They are refugees because they were never allowed to return to their homes. Those things had nothing to do with the British Mandate that I assume you are referring to. I'm not sure what you mean by the surrounding Arab states setting up Gaza. Gaza has a known history of 4,000 years, all traces of it turned to rubble now by Israel's bombardment and levelling.

Gaza was a much larger area under the 1947 UN Partition Plan than it is today - much like what happened to the West Bank.

The Partition itself was an unfair allocation of the land - giving 55% of the land to the Jewish minority comprising 1/3 of the population - most of them immigrants within the last 20 years. But by the end of Israel's War of Independence, Israel had "conquered" another 23% of land, leaving Palestinians with only 22% of the land that the British had promised them would be theirs (true to form, the British played both sides).

Both Gaza and the West Bank have shrunk for Palestinians. Israel keeps taking more of their lands through decades of land confiscation and forced dispossessions enabled by the illegal occupation. Because of the illegal settlements, Palestinians now occupy far less than 10% of their original lands. After the planned ethnic cleansing and annexation of Gaza, there will be nothing left but isolated little bantustans in the West Bank, cut off from each other and unable to form a contiguous state. But I think ethnic cleansing is coming for the Palestinians in the West Bank too.

When you take all of these facts together...I don't know, seems like land theft to me. With a big serving of ethnic cleansing to make the dream of Greater Israel a reality.

[Exp]

9. Great! Now it's time for Netanyahu. nt

[Xolodno]

14. Problem when you kill the head honcho...

...you don't know who is going to replace him. You go from predictable to unpredictable.

I'm sure it makes a nice sound bite after murdering 50k civilians and the world thinks you have become the very thing they tried to prevent from happening again. However, you just insured even more instability. Bibi may be Jewish by blood, but moraly, he isn't. A lot of bad Old Testament kings probably have a seat waiting for him.

[EX500rider]

26. "a nice sound bite after murdering 50k civilians" So no Hamas dead then?

In recent armed conflicts, civilian casualties have accounted for a significant portion of overall deaths, often ranging from 30% to 70%. In urban warfare, this percentage can be even higher, with estimates indicating that 49-66% of fatalities in urban areas are civilians, according to the Uppsala Conflict Data Program (UCDP).

Is it just murder when the IDF does it?

[Xolodno]

29. This reasoning is exactly why cycle continues.

Using the same methods and expecting different results will get you nowhere.

[EX500rider]

32. You mean wars are generally the same. What was the IDF's Plan B after 10/7? Stern letter? Finger wagging?

How would the US have reacted if it had happened here?

[Xolodno]

42. Oh good grief. Talk about false equivalencies....

If the indigenous tribes of the USA resorted to that...they would be right to do so. It's their land we stole, so don't give me that bullshit of "if it happened here". Particularly since it did happen in a way on 9/11. And we know how that turned out.

Hamas attacks, Israel hits back. Hamas attacks, Israel hits back...the cycle has only been going on for the past half century or so. Expecting something different?

There are alternatives, but no one is willing to stick thier neck out, least of all Bibi whom you are defending. I prefer a peaceful solution, but since you are hell bent on war, lets go with that scenario.

The Palestinians are ripe for a civil war. The PA and Hamas/Islamic Jihad/etc. hate each other with a passion. Obviously we can't arm the PA or train them as it will look like "Western Influence"...but you know, both Russia and China don't have that hobbling them. Slip them some cash and allow them to train and buy weapons. Hell, allow them to buy tanks and planes and just say it came from Turkey. The PA knows how to smash Hamas once and for all, we are just not letting them. All Tel Aviv has to do is look the other way. Even better, it takes the focus away from Israel vs. Palestine to a Palestinian Civil War that Israel has nothing to do with.

But it won't happen as Bibi want's all Palestinians removed or dead. Despite the fact they are all ancestorally Jewish who converted to Islam. Not like they took Jewish children from Yemen from thier parents to be raised as western Jewish people....oh wait....

[EX500rider]

47. Sounds like your plan was to give them more weapons?

Doesn't sound like the best of plans to me
YMMV
Israel reacted the way any country would.

[Xolodno]

49. Nope.

If you can't distinguish the PA from Hamas, that tells me everything and then some.

And no, not every country would react that way.

You are blinded by rage and hate, nothing more. You would make a good recruit for Hamas if you expressed your "vision" in a different way. But what do I know, I've only had family members go to jail for refusing a draft. Again, you are the one defending Bibi and not once have I seen you disavow him. And made the case for more violence. What? didn't like the trap I set for you to show your true colors?

[EX500rider]

56. lol, nice projection....fail

I know the PA & Hamas had no chance to fight any war with the tanks you wanted to give them as they don't share a border.

You are blinded by rage and hate, nothing more.

Again, you are the one defending Bibi and not once have I seen you disavow him.

Never even mentioned him, just pointed out most countries who had over a thousand of their citizens brutally raped, murdered & kidnapped by a neighboring territory would have responded in much the same way.

[Xolodno]

60. My point...

...still stands.

[EX500rider]

64. And as always on the internet when you stoop to personal attacks it means you've lost the argument

[Xolodno]

66. Do you live in SoCal?

I'll buy you a beer.

It wasn't personal. I get it, your angry, frustrated, etc. so it sounds personal. But it wasn't. I'm just pointing out emotions can cloud rational thinking. Very few ask what can we do to solve an issue vs. how do we punish others for an issue. The latter will get you nowhere.

[EX500rider]

67. Except I'm not angry or frustrated

And you accusing me of that doesn't sound personal, it is personal

[Beastly Boy]

57. What's with the personal attacks? You know this violates DU terms of service, don't you?

"You are blinded by rage and hate, nothing more. You would make a good recruit for Hamas if you expressed your "vision" in a different way."

What the hell is wrong with you?

I would delete your post if I were you. And you might consider looking for other posts in this thread to delete.

[Violet_Crumble]

61. Hmm, I do think they've got it right...

Also, how is them expressing their opinions any different than the opinions you insisted on airing in the I/P forum about a DUer you don't like because they don't share your rigid and blind defence of everything Israel does?

What the hell is wrong with you?

[Beastly Boy]

87. Did I ever call anyone "a goof recruit for Hamas" for disagreeing with me?

I wouldn't even ask what the hell is wrong with you.

And I would certainly not accuse you of "being blinded by hate and rage" just because your views don't conform with mine. Nor do I recall doing so to any DUer expressing opinions, however biased, ill-informed or misguided, in the I/P forum.

And I certainly never suggested that any DUer " would make a good recruit for Hamas if [they] expressed [their] "vision" in a different way".

Would YOU?

[Xolodno]

63. Wasn't a personal attack. Hell, I'll buy a beer for him.

We are all hypocrites in some form or fashion. I like to learn from that, some, don't want to. I'm just pointing out, that some times your own bias gets in the way of rational thinking. It's all too easy to express the anger and rage vs. the anger and rage an opponent feels. Someone has to break the cycle, otherwise, it just continues. Again, current methods are not working and will probably never work. Sort of like the death penalty is designed to stop violent criminals, only it doesn't. Nobody is even trying to find different solutions. Only calling for more bombs. And I see too many on DU asking for more bombs and not taking a step back to look for an alternative. But I repeat myself, you are defending Bibi, not me.

[EX500rider]

97. Except you are wrong, I feel zero "anger & rage" about the Israel/Hamas war

Why would I only pick only Gaza to be upset/mad about?

Not Ukrainians killed by Russians?
Not Yemen civilian's killed by Houthi's?
Not Sudanese killed by the RSF?
Not Libyan's killed by various militia's?
Not Iranian's killed by their own govt?
Not Congolese killed by M23 rebels?
Not Nigerians killed by Boko Haram or Fulani raiders ?
Not Myanmar civilian's killed by the Junta?
Not North Korean executed by their own govt for watching S Korea TV?
Not abuses against Uyghurs in China ?

Etc, etc Ad nauseam

Always going to feel less sorry for the side that started the war, just like there wasn't a lot of pity for Japanese or German civilian's in WWII, sucks to be you but your govt started this mess.

Also around 150,000 people die every day around the world, only 50,000 or so of those are from natural causes, so 100,000 people die tragically every day from warfare, homicide, starvation, traffic accidents, etc,

So in the year & a half maybe 30 to 40,000 civilians dying in Gaza is no less tragic then the 54 MILLION people who died needlessly elsewhere in that time period. India alone has around 475 people die every DAY in just traffic accidents.

Wouldn't be good for my mental health to be perpetually outraged/upset/sad about something happening on the other side of the world etc

The fact that many here on DU only seem upset about Gaza Vs all the other tragedies is quite interesting and not in a good way IMO

[Beastly Boy]

98. I once had a friend who got insulted and was offered a beer by that same man. I tried to hold him back, but he prevailed

Last edited Thu May 29, 2025, 06:53 PM - Edit history (1)

And after it was all over, none of the parties involved were in a mood for a beer, and one of us was in no condition to enjoy it. Not because he was a hypocrite, but because my friend took his offer as an added insult.

And if you think your post wasn't insulting, take a look at who rec'd my post and not yours.

[Dave Bowman]

69. "Again, you are the one defending Bibi"

Defending the indefensible, how sad.

[Beastly Boy]

28. No better reason to have Hamas disarmed and disbanded.

But as I said many times before, when you fight an enemy who indoctrinate their children virtually from birth, you know EXACTLY who is going to replace the leaders.

An even better reason to have Hamas disarmed and disbanded.

[Xolodno]

31. Yes, the methods used for the past half century or so have worked tremendously...

...poorly.

Lets keep doing it until good results happen

Then lets call everyone who disagrees an antisemite. Yeah, that will work. Do I need to put the sarcasm tag on this as well?

Hamas wins because Bibi is predictable. They know exactly what he's going to do and he falls for it every single time because his hatred out weighs reason. Even other hard liners such as Ariel Sharon recongized this couldn't continue and something different needed to happen. But alas...health took him first.

But hey, I'm not defending Bibi, but you are.

[Beastly Boy]

38. Those methods include numerous peace plans rejected by the Palestinians

But please tell me of the methods used to end wholesale indoctrination of Palestinian children.

I haven't heard of any.

Oh, don't worry. You will not be called an antisemite if you don't come up with anything. I reserve this honor to real antisemites. Believe me, I know the difference. No sarcasm.

And let's keep calling every antisemitic remark a mere disagreement. Yeah, that will work. Sarcasm.

On edit: when you give up on this search, feel free to search for anything where I defended Bibi. Don't be too surprised if the outcomes of both your searches turn out to be identical.

[Xolodno]

46. Yes, bombing the shit out of Gaza, raids in the West Bank will end indoctrination.

Do I need a sarcasm tag for that?

Again, the same methods have been used for decades and has resulted in nothing. And here's the rub, Palestine was on its way to becoming a nation and peaceful, then hard line Israel politicians got elected and scrubbed all that. Something you conveniently ignored. But blame the Palestinians, for not accepting demands they were tenuous at best with their own people and would have to massage in once the benefits kicked in. The problem in going all in poker every single time, it only takes once to lose. Israel lost on the first hand. So bitch and moan all you want here, but I don't see any solutions. Just inadvert defense of Bibi, where even residents of Israel want him gone.

[Beastly Boy]

48. So you didn't find a single instance of attempted opposition of radical indoctrination in gazan schools.

Not one. You can keep telling me about what doesn't work untill hell freezes over, but none of it addresses the subject I raised.

We both know which methods resulted in nothing. And, evidently, ending indoctrination of school children is not one if them. Do you now want me to get distracted into the utter nonsense of Palestinians being on their way of becoming... get this... a peaceful nation? Give me a break, they were at each other's throats in Gaza in 2005. PLO was expelled from Jordan, Lebanon and Tunisia because, in the absence of Jews, a sufficient number of them found each other suitable targets for hatred and violence.

Don't even try to deflect from the question. If you can't honestly answer it, you are done. No excuses.

[Xolodno]

50. And yet...

...you still ignore the hard line governments of Israel that stifled those who tried to bring in a peaceful solution. Your response shows everything. You don't believe peace is possible so, extermination...of your own brethren mind you. Or complete deportation. So you don't want a peaceful solution. I get it, sad to say.

[Beastly Boy]

52. And yet... you keep deflecting and making stuff up.

Who are "those who tried to bring in a peaceful solution"? Can you be more specific than that? Whoever they are, have they tried ending the brainwashing of Palestinian children? Evidently not, since you cannot find a single instance of that happening.

They certainly do not includethe publishers of textbooks full of hatred of all things Jewish and glorifying martyrdom. I literally told you what I believe would make peace possible. You keep ignoring it and telling me I didn't believe peace is possible and I don't want peaceful solution. What kind of nonsense is this?

Meanwhile you yourself didn't utter a single word on how you believe peace is possible.

Good bye.

[Xolodno]

59. So be it.

And the cycle will continue.

[Johnny2X2X]

17. Changes nothing.

BiBi and Trump have made their plan clear about Gaza now. There is no longer a need to guess. Every man, woman, and child in Gaza is to be killed or ejected from the country and then Trump’s and BiBi’s developer friends will carve up the land for themselves.

[Richard D]

24. Yeah, right.

Want to put a few hundred down on that happening? I will say it won't.

[Ping Tung]

45. Will Trump take the credit, proclaim victory and peace and stop selling arms to any of t he participants?

[PJMcK]

51. Netanyahu must be so proud

Fucking war criminal.

[LexVegas]

54. This will piss off supporters of freedom fighters. nt

[Violet_Crumble]

65. Are you talking about supporters of Hamas?

IF so, probably not. As shown during the US invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan, Americans with conservative leanings tend to think terrorist organisations can be destroyed by killing the top people. That's not the case at all, and while it probably gives some Americans a bit of a chubby to celebrate the death of one of them, the problem is there's always more to take their place.

If the root issue (in this case, a dispossessed people) isn't addressed then there's going to be an endless supply of 'leaders' to step up because they're not being given anything to live for.

[EX500rider]

119. "the problem is there's always more to take their place." It speeds up "The Peter Principle"

You get less & less capable people trying to run the org. A plus for the other side in war.

The Peter Principle states that in an organizational hierarchy, employees tend to receive a promotion until reaching a state of incompetence. The origin of the Peter Principle stems from Dr. Laurence J. Peter, who wrote about the management theory in his book, The Peter Principle: Why Things Always Go Wrong.

[Orrex]

68. And it only took tens of thousands of murdered Palestinian children to get him.

[Dave Bowman]

70. +1 👍